we could pay down all of the overspending of obama's first term by having 4% growth instead of 2% growth. and we know how to do it, because we did it under reagan. >> but why would you cut spending then, spending that's supposed to encourage the economy to get better so you get more growth and get rid of your deficits? >> i think -- well, i think we should, one -- first of all, we have to pay down the debt he ran up. we're spending $1 trillion more each year, the federal government -- we, the federal government is spending $1 trillion more each year than when obama walked into office. it's that overspending we need to bring down. raising taxes doesn't solve the overspending problem. it feeds it. and, again, we have been through this lucy and the football thing in '82, in '90. we didn't take the advice of the tax increase last year, and we got spending restraint for the debt ceiling. remember, the republican house has a tremendous power over the debt ceiling. so all this stuff about how we have to bend to the emperor's will isn't true. >> all right. grover norquist, thanks very much. we a